[beta] Web Wide Wars

[collapsoul]

So here it is. A monster scotched and stapled together by an ex-commie.


2250 lines of own code. 3232 lines total. And it's barely 2/3 done ATM. But! We koll it beta 'cuz it`s beta thun nuffin`.
It's already completely playable and winnable/loseable though.


Done:

 - Start menu featuring detailed map preview, possibility to change map layout, to change different difficulty aspects - such as whether should all the asteroids be revealed to player right from start or not, should the player to have an advantage or disadvantage regarding starting seedling count, and, finally, choise whom to fight against (default AI, Aino's Merchant AI, annikk.exe's Infected AI, or a mixture of empires controlled by Infected (odd empire numbers) and Merchant(even empire numbers)). Also, it is possible to choose to not play but just sit and observe AI vs AI fights instead.

 - map generation procedures providing rather nice diversity in its layout given single template, which is the spider web.

 - some visuals to give it webbish look


To do:

 - Seedling rally control elements to ease playthrough and not be too clicky at midgame and endgame (WIP, just removed it from the version I upload here as it's not yet working exactly as I intend it to);

 - spider lurking in the center of the web and causing trouble to everyone;

 - sort of suitable visuals;

 - leaderboard like Aino's but less texty (bar-based);

 - view history after victory/defeat (somewhat like Civilization 4 does show - territiry possession changes over time and some graphs).


Unexpected troubles I ran into so far:

 - Start menu thingy means that all the asteroids (except for those two that provide map preview view range and also LevelLogit-time asteroid spawning boundaries) are created already at the LevelLogic - stage. Right after they are created, no one can send a single seedling from one to another despite suitable send distances.
Resolved by sending each of them MoveBy() command immediately after their creation - this action refreshes the engine's inter-reachability info.

 - grace time (both Globals.AI.GraceTimer and Asteroid:SetGraceTime()) seems to have limited effect on asteroids created this way. At least I can't find any other reasonable explanation to the fact that both Infected AI and Merchant AI are sometimes planting defence trees
Almost fully resolved by periodically (thrice a second currently) setting grace timers to 99999 again and again during the gameplay. Defence trees occurencies are really rare now (for example, it happened only once during 70-asteroid map play, and Infected was one who did this. BTW, Merchant seems to be much more resistant to this effect - I'll investigate it a little later). Otherwise, both AIs' behavior is easily recognizable. Have to look more inside Merchant though - haven't play it much before.

- Infected AI has had to undergo some boost to show his teeth properly at larger asteroid counts. Totally random choise of asteroid each iteration if there are near 100 of them (happens too) proven to slow this sturdy guy alot.  Simply increasing number of iterations each tick made it all too slow and jerky on my poor old computer. So I forced him to choose asteroids which he really has some interest at. The drawback is that it is fast while it is slim - going fat (in terms of owned asteroids count) slows him to some extent (not easily spotted, anyway). Also, I removed math.sqrt() happening each iteration as I already have a similar array of neighbours and it is static.

So, as I see, annikk.exe is back at this forum, and it is indeed great timing. I was going to disturb him by email already for a couple of advices regarding his AI

I still feel myself pretty noobish with EufLuaria (as Pilchard calls it). All I currently know of it comes from this forum and existing custom levels' dissection. If any modder happens to have some time to look into the code and sees that something could be done easier/nicer/more optimized - I welcome your kicks, just leave me some my teeth to fare  
Looking forward for any kind of feedback.

<edit> updated the file. Forgot to finish backdrop color sliders graphics.

[Lost Seedling]

You know, when I saw the Beta thread I started breathing again but after reading the description I was so excited I nearly had a heart attack with anticipation. But when I saw the start menu I stopped breathing again and I think I might have even had a small stroke. I knew it was possible, but didn't think I'd ever see it done. The start menu alone is one of the most exquisite things I've ever seen. Beautiful! The preview map is too cool for words. In fact, I can't think of enough superlatives to describe what a work of art this is! Being somewhat obsessive-compulsive, the coding, while I understand little of it (and it also gave me an aneurysm), soothes my compulsion for order and neatness. The way you disciplined the wayward tendencies of the Eufloria beast and whipped it into shape is most impressive. A most elegant creation! After you finish the final one-third, this may rival my all-time favorite Eufloria masterpiece- Annikk's "Frontier".

I am particularly interested in seeing what form your "history" graphs take. I inserted my "Graph" function into your beta-map, but while it works well with player-mode, it would not work initially with AI opponents-only mode - unfortunate since I enjoy watching the AI battles/behaviors. Probably a simple tweak to my ugly code, however.

Do you have a rough guess as to when the final version will be completed? I promise not to hold my breath for the duration.

   

[Aino]

AWESOME

Great job on this one, though maybe lower the stats being show to under the asteroid, or some other cool effect? It looks kinda weird having some of them stick out of the side like that

[collapsoul]

lower the stats being show to under the asteroid, or some other cool effect? It looks kinda weird having some of them stick out of the side like that

Accepted. I just didn't any much polish most part of the preview yet - just did the necessary minimum to put it together to be working.
Stats will move, empire numbers will turn to names ("player" for 1st, AI names for others), treecaps... thinking of it.

The only thing I tried to adjust so far is the button layout at different resoultions/aspect ratios. Though I am limited to 4:3 aspect by my hardware, I tried to imitate widescreen by resizing game's window. Can anyone tell me how il looks at widescreen if compared to 4:3?
Also, it's pain I can't control text's width/height directly... Thinking of reworking one of existing custom DrawText functions.

Overall, I will revamp many things regarding start menu with time. For instance, player seedling proportion buttons will be replaced with a slider. Also, some control elements regarding properties of generated maps will be added, such as min/max desired empire count / starting owned asteroid count. As for settings regarding the geometry of the generated maps... Well, maybe. These should be treated with care, as their change could lead to an infinite loop or ugly layout.
And the way all the buttons are currently made is pretty old-school and obsolete. When I look on these buttons, they are telling me they would feel much more comfortable being the arrays/objects.

And Aino, if/when you will have time, please observe your AI's behavior on this map and tell me if it really behaves exactly the way it is coded or do I need to find some way to force it to do so. I have some doubts: when it is attacked, it amasses it's forces at the asteroid that is neighbour to attacked one. But it never moves any seedlings in to defend this attacked asteroid before it is finally captured by the enemy, even if it possesses the force that would with no doubt wipe attacker to limbo. Seems like it is very afraid of losing any seedlings at all. Though I also tested it on EverSwarm (did put Merchant there in a similar manner: even/odd empire numbers are Merchant/Infected--controlled) and it acted the same here, I feel I may be messing/missing something.
Anyway, though it basiccally succumbs to Infected, I prefer to attack Infected. To me as a player, Merchant is harder to lay siege on. But there were already so many occurencies when it could slip past my forces deep into my inner, unguarded territiry and kick me off the map with his huge army, and it just sit still and watched me taking his roids one by one if I bother to attack only with a half of the seedlings I have on the border asteroid, not all of them. Will post some screenshots describing this later.

I knew it was possible, but didn't think I'd ever see it done. The start menu alone is one of the most exquisite things I've ever seen. Beautiful! The preview map is too cool for words. In fact, I can't think of enough superlatives to describe what a work of art this is!

And you are telling me this having your Eufloria Arts Project finished? You really have one step left there to do this

I inserted my "Graph" function into your beta-map

I do that to every custom map I play

but while it works well with player-mode, it would not work initially with AI opponents-only mode - unfortunate since I enjoy watching the AI battles/behaviors. Probably a simple tweak to my ugly code, however.

It's not ugly. But... some upgrade may take place. Have a look at strings 1049-1056 of this beta, it is a code snippet I found at Mihhaelo's the Swarm map and it provides access to actual faction colors. Format is: ArrayFactionColours[<NumFaction>][<0..4>].<r or g or b>. Each faction has 5 colors assigned to them - from shrinked seedling color (0) through their common body color and the asteroid glowing (1,2) and roots color (3) to the two colours that compose transition on seedling wings and some parts of mines and flowers (3,4). Colour pulse you see on asteroids and web segments both in preview and in game are composed of these colors (strings 135-201). That could help you avoid the whole on-screen detection thing.

Do you have a rough guess as to when the final version will be completed? I promise not to hold my breath for the duration.

Well... I started work on this exactly a month ago, spending 2-4 evenings (sometimes turning to "nightnings") every week.
To not miss greatly I'd say it's about another one month (half of it finishing, another half is a bug-hunt).

To do:

 - Seedling rally control elements to ease playthrough and not be too clicky at midgame and endgame (WIP, just removed it from the version I upload here as it's not yet working exactly as I intend it to);

Includes pointers/warnings to some certain events, such as unplucked/unplanted flowers, own asteroids that still have free tree slots and attack warnings (with bars showing proportions of seedlings counts of each fighting faction). Still WIP but soon.


2All: On other note, how it feels? Isn't it too easy? If effective winning tactic is too obvious? About monotonous seedling sendings I do know and I'm working on it.

<add>
I feel that I'm close to it but someow just can't figure it out.
Is it achievable to let player to zoom in and out freely at map preview stage (as it is now), but then, when "play" button is pressed and if "reveal all" button is unchecked(red), to limit player's field of view again to owned asteroids and their surroundings? Without FOV limiting I consider "reveal all" functionality unfinished...

[Lost Seedling]

Also, it's pain I can't control text's width/height directly... Thinking of reworking one of existing custom DrawText functions.

I chose Aino's DrawText for the Arts Project for the great ability to control it's appearance, but regret doing so for the following reasons. One, it was very difficult (for me, at least) to adjust the text parameters automatically and still make it readable at various screen sizes. Different colors result also in slightly different appearance dimension-wise, and require further adjustment for readability when changing colors with the same text (such as my menu buttons). It was for this reason that I chose a fixed-coordinate system for the menus with the unfortunate result in that your monitor would not display the entire menu. Adjusting plain graphics for various screen sizes is quite easy as noted in another thread, but I just could not get the text to resize adequately. If I had used the Lua DrawText, I would not have had that problem. Secondly, I discovered very late in the development that there is a limit (at least for my computer) in the number of "DrawLine" commands Eufloria is willing to handle. After several hundred line-segments are drawn, certain colors begin to fail to render, and soon no DrawLines can be seen- meaning no text. If I had used the Lua DrawText, I could render illustrations of slightly greater complexity. I have no idea how much "drain" Aino's Text function has on Eufloria vs. the Lua Text Function, but assume it could be significant when combined with other demands for clock cycles. Nevertheless, I still prefer the appearance of Aino's Text.

But it never moves any seedlings in to defend this attacked asteroid before it is finally captured by the enemy, even if it possesses the force that would with no doubt wipe attacker to limbo.

Please! Don't get me started on this topic! I sit and scream at the computer as I watch Merchant fail to attack and seize the advantage, allowing Infected to recover it's spread-too-thin forces. I have observed this behavior from Merchant's birth, although I believe Aino has attempted to fix this. Many times I have seen Merchant out-maneuver Infected's methodical advances, only to suddenly freeze. It will amass a huge hive of seedlings on one asteroid while Infected takes over the battlefield until it is much too late to recover. If Aino can fix this I think Merchant could consistently beat Infected on certain types of maps. I've tried using Merchant on several maps I've made but this freezing problem happens all the time, it seems.

I knew it was possible, but didn't think I'd ever see it done. The start menu alone is one of the most exquisite things I've ever seen. Beautiful! The preview map is too cool for words. In fact, I can't think of enough superlatives to describe what a work of art this is!
And you are telling me this having your Eufloria Arts Project finished? You really have one step left there to do this

I'm speaking strictly from a mathematical perspective, not how it pleases the eye. I hope the Arts Project can be of help to you in the eye-candy department! 

It's not ugly. But... some upgrade may take place. Have a look at strings 1049-1056 of this beta, it is a code snippet I found at Mihhaelo's the Swarm map and it provides access to actual faction colors. Format is: ArrayFactionColours[<NumFaction>][<0..4>].<r or g or b>. Each faction has 5 colors assigned to them - from shrinked seedling color (0) through their common body color and the asteroid glowing (1,2) and roots color (3) to the two colours that compose transition on seedling wings and some parts of mines and flowers (3,4). Colour pulse you see on asteroids and web segments both in preview and in game are composed of these colors (strings 135-201). That could help you avoid the whole on-screen detection thing.

I did, in fact, create a version which used this. Perhaps I need to revisit it, but despite a mighty effort on my part, the resultant color values did not match the in-game reality. From what you seem to be saying, perhaps I was reading initial color values that were different from the asteroid halo, which is really the color that matters most in faction identification. Even so, I found that often the colors used in the game were so similar, if those same colors were to be used in my chart, you STILL would have a problem differentiating between the factions. Since it does not seem possible to assign colors in-game, my best solution was to pick my own colors for the chart, and then use the "on-screen" trick to allow the player to figure out what was being tracked. Not an elegant solution but one that works! (Am I making sense?)

I inserted my "Graph" function into your beta-map
I do that to every custom map I play

Really? I will only do so after I have beaten the map on it's own terms. Using my graph function, I find it gives me a great advantage in knowing just how much of a threat each enemy is, and allows me to marshal my resources much more efficiently. Without it, I have to guess just how much of a threat an enemy represents, and often will guess wrongly. But it does add an extra dimension to the gameplay and I love to see the end-game analysis of where and how the tide of battle turned.

 

On other note, how it feels? Isn't it too easy? If effective winning tactic is too obvious? About monotonous seedling sendings I do know and I'm working on it.

Well, I have several comments, believe it or not! 

I have deliberately only played the beta several times, as I don't want to get burned out before the final version is released. But in trying to provide you with some constructive feedback and having written several paragraphs on the perceived strengths and weaknesses earlier, I've reconsidered and can only say this:

What is the purpose of these exercises in map-making anyway? As a player, I want to be entertained and challenged for a short while. What is easy for one player may be just right for another. You've provided a very effective method of allowing the player to adjust the difficulty level to their own experience, playing style, or mood.

As for the map-type or configuration, I think basically this could be considered a grid-style map versus an "organic" style. As you note, grid -style maps tend to depend on advancing a front by constant resupply from the rear, something I think you wanted to avoid with a "web" configuration. So, in between advancing to the next intersection of silk strand, there is a lot of monotonous clicking. A rally system would help to alleviate that, but I was also thinking of what the spider will be doing in the map center to "cause trouble for everyone". If it could provide an element of random uncertainty it could alleviate monotony.

Whether I want to or not, once the game begins I can see the entire web layout. This takes away a lot of the mystery and surprise-element that makes a map challenging. Perhaps an additional option for the player to view the map in this manner or not would be nice.

I'm looking forward a great deal to the final version.



 

[Aino]

I've never seen Merchant freeze, I thought I'd fixed it...

Also, I'm kinda pained to see my AI fail miserably. I must fix...

Edit: And so do I enter the road of derp once more, I saw the error of why it wouldn't attack when attacked... DERP, deluxe edition!

Edit 2: Not so derp after all, 'cause I have fixed this problem before...

[Pilchard123]

Derp de luxe!

[Aino]

Yes, it's derp deluxe 'cause I haven't released the fixed version...

Edit: Just playing the map again, seeing two MAI's fight versus two IAI, made me think of alliance. I thought that they could form bonds after meeting, the first sighting of each other would tell whether they would be friendly towards each other or enemies just like normal. This only include not attacking, they won't help each other in struggle though.

This should also be disallowed by the creator of the map though

[Pilchard123]

Alliances? Now that would be cool. Going in OHAI, as soon as I get it to actually work normally.

[collapsoul]

Yes, it's derp deluxe

JFYI, that's the very moment when I cared to finally find out what 'derp' means. I afraid that all previous encounters of it on this forum were mistook by me as 'burp'. Just thought that 'burp deluxe' sounds... weird.

'cause I haven't released the fixed version...

...So I don't need to post these screenshots. Care to share this fix?
If somewhy not - okay then, challenge will be accepted. Think I can fnd it out. Upon adding Infected on this map I spent a couple evenings digging it's guts just to make it do at least something (it stood completely freezed at first tries).  Though I'm still not sure:
1) if a number at the string 2340 should be really 1 and not 2
2) if string 2429 is needed at all
And your code deserves no less atention then annikk's.

Anyway, I gave myself a short vacation to let myself a pause in rally system creation process. It gone far too complex already - more like a bot controlling player's resources... need to rethink its concept.

made me think of alliance

The very name I chose for my future AI made me think of implementing exactly the same hoax. It'd look absolutely natural. Name's CommieBot.

If I had used the Lua DrawText, I could render illustrations of slightly greater complexity.

Learning how Hitman's render_text is done and if I can modify it to allow setting width/height individually and to put it to use.

Since it does not seem possible to assign colors in-game, my best solution was to pick my own colors for the chart, and then use the "on-screen" trick to allow the player to figure out what was being tracked. Not an elegant solution but one that works! (Am I making sense?)

Well, I am yet to find out myself how good or bad my own leaderbars and history will look, as I'm going to stick with faction colors (not pulsing like asteroids are done, but static color combos instead)

Really? I will only do so after I have beaten the map on it's own terms. Using my graph function, I find it gives me a great advantage in knowing just how much of a threat each enemy is, and allows me to marshal my resources much more efficiently.

Anyway I'm looking at it only when the fight is nearly done. Don't have much time to do so mid-game as countless times I played EverSwarm made my seedling deliverance speed quite close to that of Infected.

Without it, I have to guess just how much of a threat an enemy represents, and often will guess wrongly.

Good point. Leader bars enabling/disabling button will go to difficulty settings.

As for the map-type or configuration, I think basically this could be considered a grid-style map versus an "organic" style.

It is grid-style design which I try to make look like organic one
Geometry generation parameters' boundaries are still being tweaked...

something I think you wanted to avoid with a "web" configuration.

The main idea behind this design is that no one here has the advantage of being threatened from a single direction and has to maintain multiple borderlands distant to each other simultaneously.

but I was also thinking of what the spider will be doing in the map center to "cause trouble for everyone". If it could provide an element of random uncertainty it could alleviate monotony.

Now this is the part where I'm thinking and planning the most carefully to not waste the whole idea...

Whether I want to or not, once the game begins I can see the entire web layout. This takes away a lot of the mystery and surprise-element that makes a map challenging. Perhaps an additional option for the player to view the map in this manner or not would be nice.

Yeah, I'm trying to resolve how to limit camera view at play start after it's freedom at preview stage. That's the problem:

I feel that I'm close to it but someow just can't figure it out.
Is it achievable to let player to zoom in and out freely at map preview stage (as it is now), but then, when "play" button is pressed and if "reveal all" button is unchecked(red), to limit player's field of view again to owned asteroids and their surroundings? Without FOV limiting I consider "reveal all" functionality unfinished...

If I simply shrink the whole preview drawing, change LevelSetup-created asteroids' owner to 0 and create two more roids that are closer to coordinate center and are owned by player (to supply camera's view to that shrinked preview) then on play the map is still viewable from player's start to map's middle point.

Two roids I create at LevelSetup are serving treble purpose:
1) if no asteroids are specified at LevelSetup the map gives an error.
2) their coordinates set the coordinate boundaries within which I am able to create/move roids during LevelLogic. They are extending these borders, actually. Try moving 'em closer to (0,0) (say, replace 30k with 10k) and see what happens to web's outer ring.
3) they are set to be owned by player to enable free camera zoom-in/zoom-out at preview. Try setting their ownership to 0 (or removing 'reveal(1)') then start preview and try zooming out... Perharps I can work this around if I'll create UI buttons to control zoom, but that's not too handy, isn't it?

I wonder if it is resolveable at all...

<update> Seems Aino has just achieved 1337 posts, which is a nice reason for congratulations =-)
Also, I'm happy it happened at my thread

[Aino]

I can upload the new version, I've just been so busy playing with my buds

I think I'll add that ally option too while I'm at it

[collapsoul]

I can upload the new version, I've just been so busy playing with my buds

Glad to know this. Anticipation makes me boil like a teapot

[annikk.exe]

Is it achievable to let player to zoom in and out freely at map preview stage (as it is now), but then, when "play" button is pressed and if "reveal all" button is unchecked(red), to limit player's field of view again to owned asteroids and their surroundings? Without FOV limiting I consider "reveal all" functionality unfinished...

I think that should be possible.. :>
The way you could do it is to have a player-owned asteroid with radius 0, with its coordinates centred on the area you want to be visible.  Then you can control how much the player can see by changing the asteroid's Send Distance.

I did a sneaky tricky like this for the beginning of EXTRME PWN LAZ0RZ.  If you try zooming in and out during the start, you'll see that you can zoom gradually further and further out as time goes by.  Maybe you'll also notice my sexy vignette effects.. :D

Rather than placing the 0 radius asteroid in the middle of blank space, I'd recommend placing it inside another asteroid if possible (remember to turn off the "Moveable" auto-adjust feature on the relevant asteroids!), that way the arrow that you get when dragging-and-dropping from an asteroid will not interact with an invisible asteroid in a seemingly empty region of space.

[Aino]

I implemented the alliance, it kinda works... Except for the part when they betray each other, them douche bag AIs

They fight well against each other, no problems seem to appear. So I guess I'll release it once I've fully tested it

[Aino]

And now the new AI is released, sadly with no Alliance system

[collapsoul]

Hi to everyone, explanation of my sudden silence follows.
My poor old computer (it served me faithfully for six years) seems to be finally passing away. Hardware shows significant signs of exhaustion. So my current tools are mostly a screwdriver, a blowtorch and likes... 30 minutes of more or less stable uptime is what I succeeded to achieve so far.
Well, in the end, I may be able to revive it, and I may be not. If not, it'll take some time to get new one. There is no telling what time exactly all this will take. Shall try to update my status asap.

[Pilchard123]

A blowtorch!? I think I can see your problem right there...

[collapsoul]

A blowtorch!? I think I can see your problem right there...

ouch. lol@me. mistranslation happens. i'm speaking about a soldering station. it's really almost THAT powerful though.
still ROFLing at myself, typing this message from below the table...

[Pilchard123]

Yea, I guessed you meant a soldering thing. Deliberately misunderstanding is funnier though.

[collapsoul]

Yea, I guessed you meant a soldering thing. Deliberately misunderstanding is funnier though.

I guessed that you guessed that ;-)
But I imagined how would it look...

p.s.: so far seems to be working just fine while it's not about high resource load, for ex., internet surfing. Diggin' deeper...

[collapsoul]

Almost there. All that happened because of sudden weather change to -35 Celsius. Communal town heating control department (uh... if I speak unclean - i'm about the office that provides warmth and hot water in houses) showed grieving latency reacting to this change, thus threating people to experience below 10 Celsius at home (thus if one doesn't have electric heaters) for about 20 hours. My hardware disliked all this mess critically. ATM all runs way too slow, excluding light tasks like internet browsing (while it's not up to advanced SWF's) and code editor. Thus said, I indeed can proceed with coding, BUT I can't properly test what I do. Currently sparing some money for new hard drive and (again!) power supply unit. It's less than entire new computer, but will still take some time, because I must take my small daughter and wife into account first...